gorgias-第4章

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　great　experience　of　disputations；　and　you　must　have　observed；　I　think；　that　they　do　not　always　terminate　in　mutual　edification；　or　in　the　definition　by　either　party　of　the　subjects　which　they　are　discussing；　but　disagreements　are　apt　to　arise…somebody　says　that　another　has　not　spoken　truly　or　clearly；　and　then　they　get　into　a　passion　and　begin　to　quarrel；　both　parties　conceiving　that　their　opponents　are　arguing　from　personal　feeling　only　and　jealousy　of　themselves；　not　from　any　interest　in　the　question　at　issue。　And　sometimes　they　will　go　on　abusing　one　another　until　the　company　at　last　are　quite　vexed　at　themselves　for　ever　listening　to　such　fellows。　Why　do　I　say　this？　Why；　because　I　cannot　help　feeling　that　you　are　now　saying　what　is　not　quite　consistent　or　accordant　with　what　you　were　saying　at　first　about　rhetoric。　And　I　am　afraid　to　point　this　out　to　you；　lest　you　should　think　that　I　have　some　animosity　against　you；　and　that　I　speak；　not　for　the　sake　of　discovering　the　truth；　but　from　jealousy　of　you。　Now　if　you　are　one　of　my　sort；　I　should　like　to　cross…examine　you；　but　if　not　I　will　let　you　alone。　And　what　is　my　sort？　you　will　ask。　I　am　one　of　those　who　are　very　willing　to　be　refuted　if　I　say　anything　which　is　not　true；　and　very　willing　to　refute　any　one　else　who　says　what　is　not　true；　and　quite　as　ready　to　be　refuted　as　to　refute…I　for　I　hold　that　this　is　the　greater　gain　of　the　two；　just　as　the　gain　is　greater　of　being　cured　of　a　very　great　evil　than　of　curing　another。　For　I　imagine　that　there　is　no　evil　which　a　man　can　endure　so　great　as　an　erroneous　opinion　about　the　matters　of　which　we　are　speaking　and　if　you　claim　to　be　one　of　my　sort；　let　us　have　the　discussion　out；　but　if　you　would　rather　have　done；　no　matter…let　us　make　an　end　of　it。　　　Gor。　I　should　say；　Socrates；　that　I　am　quite　the　man　whom　you　indicate；　but；　perhaps；　we　ought　to　consider　the　audience；　for；　before　you　came；　I　had　already　given　a　long　exhibition；　and　if　we　proceed　the　argument　may　run　on　to　a　great　length。　And　therefore　I　think　that　we　should　consider　whether　we；　may　not　be　detaining　some　part　of　the　company　when　they　are　wanting　to　do　something　else。　　　Chaer。　You　hear　the　audience　cheering；　Gorgias　and　Socrates；　which　shows　their　desire　to　listen　to　you；　and　for　myself；　Heaven　forbid　that　I　should　have　any　business　on　hand　which　would　take　me　Away　from　a　discussion　so　interesting　and　so　ably　maintained。　　　Cal。　By　the　gods；　Chaerephon；　although　I　have　been　present　at　many　discussions；　I　doubt　whether　I　was　ever　so　much　delighted　before；　and　therefore　if　you　go　on　discoursing　all　day　I　shall　be　the　better　pleased。　　　Soc。　I　may　truly　say；　Callicles；　that　I　am　willing；　if　Gorgias　is。　　　Gor。　After　all　this；　Socrates；　I　should　be　disgraced　if　I　refused；　especially　as　I　have　promised　to　answer　all　comers；　in　accordance　with　the　wishes　of　the　company；　them；　do　you　begin。　and　ask　of　me　any　question　which　you　like。　　　Soc。　Let　me　tell　you　then；　Gorgias；　what　surprises　me　in　your　words；　though　I　dare　say　that　you　may　be　right；　and　I　may　have　understood　your　meaning。　You　say　that　you　can　make　any　man；　who　will　learn　of　you；　a　rhetorician？　　　Gor。　Yes。　　　Soc。　Do　you　mean　that　you　will　teach　him　to　gain　the　ears　of　the　multitude　on　any　subject；　and　this　not　by　instruction　but　by　persuasion？　　　Gor。　Quite　so。　　　Soc。　You　were　saying；　in　fact；　that　the　rhetorician　will　have；　greater　powers　of　persuasion　than　the　physician　even　in　a　matter　of　health？　　　Gor。　Yes；　with　the　multitude…that　is。　　　Soc。　You　mean　to　say；　with　the　ignorant；　for　with　those　who　know　he　cannot　be　supposed　to　have　greater　powers　of　persuasion。　　　Gor。　Very　true。　　　Soc。　But　if　he　is　to　have　more　power　of　persuasion　than　the　physician；　he　will　have　greater　power　than　he　who　knows？　　　Gor。　Certainly。　　　Soc。　Although　he　is　not　a　physician：…is　he？　　　Gor。　No。　　　Soc。　And　he　who　is　not　a　physician　must；　obviously；　be　ignorant　of　what　the　physician　knows。　　　Gor。　Clearly。　　　Soc。　Then；　when　the　rhetorician　is　more　persuasive　than　the　physician；　the　ignorant　is　more　persuasive　with　the　ignorant　than　he　who　has　knowledge？…is　not　that　the　inference？　　　Gor。　In　the　case　supposed：…Yes。　　　Soc。　And　the　same　holds　of　the　relation　of　rhetoric　to　all　the　other　arts；　the　rhetorician　need　not　know　the　truth　about　things；　he　has　only　to　discover　some　way　of　persuading　the　ignorant　that　he　has　more　knowledge　than　those　who　know？　　　Gor。　Yes；　Socrates；　and　is　not　this　a　great　comfort？…not　to　have　learned　the　other　arts；　but　the　art　of　rhetoric　only；　and　yet　to　be　in　no　way　inferior　to　the　professors　of　them？　　　Soc。　Whether　the　rhetorician　is　or　not　inferior　on　this　account　is　a　question　which　we　will　hereafter　examine　if　the　enquiry　is　likely　to　be　of　any　service　to　us；　but　I　would　rather　begin　by　asking；　whether　he　is　as　ignorant　of　the　just　and　unjust；　base　and　honourable；　good　and　evil；　as　he　is　of　medicine　and　the　other　arts；　I　mean　to　say；　does　he　really　know　anything　of　what　is　good　and　evil；　base　or　honourable；　just　or　unjust　in　them；　or　has　he　only　a　way　with　the　ignorant　of　persuading　them　that　he　not　knowing　is　to　be　esteemed　to　know　more　about　these　things　than　some。　one　else　who　knows？　Or　must　the　pupil　know　these　things　and　come　to　you　knowing　them　before　he　can　acquire　the　art　of　rhetoric？　If　he　is　ignorant；　you　who　are　the　teacher　of　rhetoric　will　not　teach　him…it　is　not　your　business；　but　you　will　make　him　seem　to　the　multitude　to　know　them；　when　he　does　not　know　them；　and　seem　to　be　a　good　man；　when　he　is　not。　Or　will　you　be　unable　to　teach　him　rhetoric　at　all；　unless　he　knows　the　truth　of　these　things　first？　What　is　to　be　said　about　all　this？　By　heavens；　Gorgias；　I　wish　that　you　would　reveal　to　me　the　power　of　rhetoric；　as　you　were　saying　that　you　would。　　　Gor。　Well；　Socrates；　I　suppose　that　if　the　pupil　does　chance　not　to　know　them；　he　will　have　to　learn　of　me　these　things　as　well。　　　Soc。　Say　no　more；　for　there　you　are　right；　and　so　he　whom　you　make　a　rhetorician　must　either　know　the　nature　of　the　just　and　unjust　already；　or　he　must　be　taught　by　you。　　　Gor。　Certainly。　　　Soc。　Well；　and　is　not　he　who　has　learned　carpentering　a　carpenter？　　　Gor。　Yes。　　　Soc。　And　he　who　has　learned　music　a　musician？　　　Gor。　Yes。　　　Soc。　And　he　who　has　learned　medicine　is　a　physician；　in　like　manner？　He　who　has　learned　anything　whatever　is　that　which　his　knowledge　makes　him。　　　Gor。　Certainly。　　　Soc。　And　in　the　same　way；　he　who　has　learned　what　is　just　is　just？　　　Gor。　To　be　sure。　　　Soc。　And　he　who　is　just　may　be　supposed　to　do　what　is　just？　　　Gor。　Yes。　　　Soc。　And　must　not　the　just　man　always　desire　to　do　what　is　just？　　　Gor。　That　is　clearly　the　inference。　　　Soc。　Surely；　then；　the　just　man　will　never　consent　to　do　injustice？　　　Gor。　Certainly　not。　　　Soc。　And　according　to　the　argument　the　rhetorician　must　be　a　just　man？　　　Gor。　Yes。　　　Soc。　And　will　therefore　never　be　willing　to　do　injustice？　　　Gor。　Clearly　not。　　　Soc。　But　do　you　remember　saying　just　now　that　the　trainer　is　not　to　be　accused　or　banished　if　the　pugilist　makes　a　wrong　use　of　his　pugilistic　art；　and　in　like　manner；　if　the　rhetorician　makes　a　bad　and　unjust　use　of　rhetoric；　that　is　not　to　be　laid　to　the　charge　of　his　teacher；　who　is　not　to　be　banished；　but　the　wrong…doer　himself　who　made　a　bad　use　of　his　rhetoric…he　is　to　be　banished…was　not　that　said？　　　Gor。　Yes；　it　was。　　　Soc。　But　now　we　are　affirming　that　the　aforesaid　rhetorician　will　never　have　done　injustice　at　all？　　　Gor。　True。　　　Soc。　And　at　the　very　outset；　Gorgias；　it　was　said　that　rhetoric　treated　of　discourse；　not　＇like　arithmetic＇　about　odd　and　even；　but　about　just　and　unjust？　Was　not　this　said？　　　Gor。　Yes。　　　Soc。　I　was　thinking　at　the　time；　when　I　heard　you　saying　so；　that　rhetoric；　which　is　always　discoursing　about　justice；　could　not　possibly　be　an　unjust　thing。　But　when　you　added；　shortly　afterwards；　that　the　rhetorician　might　make　a　bad　use　of　rhetoric　I　noted　with　surprise　the　inconsistency　into　which　you　had　fallen；　and　I　said；　that　if　you　thought；　as　I　did；　that　there　was　a　gain　in　being　refuted；　there　would　be　an　advantage　in　going　on　with　the　question；　but　if　not；　I　would　leave　off。　And　in　the　course　of　our　investigations；　as　you　will　see　yourself；　the　rhetorician　has　been　acknowledged　to　be　incapable　of　ma